Minutes of First TinyMUD Robotics Conference
			   12/9/89, 7PM EST
		       Robot Room, CMU TinyMUD

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Robot Room
This is the robot construction laboratory. There's a wooden cabinet
over in the corner, and an exit to the west. Also, there's a trash bin
off to the side. One more thing...if you're idle, you win 50p in death
fees. Be warned.
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Present at some time:
	 fur(chair), Fiona(sec), Wizard, Fuzzy, Acron, Prothan, MisterX
	 Majik, Vern, Hobbit, flexi, What, Kadman, Hoagy, Stewy, zippy, 
	 Gloria, Froboz, Wisher, Crash, Tortoise, gigi, erik, Yossarian, 
	 Rail

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Fiona is smartly dressed in a business suit. Seeing you looking at
her, she offers her hand and says: "Hi, I'm Fiona. Pleased to meet
you. Stewy sent me to take minutes of the meeting for him to read
later. Don't let me disturb you."
Carrying:
steno pad(#40100)

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Wizard has arrived.
Fuzzy has arrived.
Fuzzy says "say Hello to Stewy for me, Fiona."
You say "Sure thing, Mr. Fuzzy"
fur says "hi there!"
Fiona nods.
fur is here to open the robotics conference!
Wizard applauds.
Acron has arrived.
Wizard says "What's the name of the conference?"
fur says "the robotics conference, in the robot room off of the rec room"
Wizard shouts "Reminder: First TinyMUD Robotics Conference starting soon in the Robot Room (off the Rec Room)."
Prothan has arrived.
fur says "welcome welcome.."
MisterX has arrived.
Majik has arrived.
fur zips back in with his flyer
Fuzzy says "Due to circumstances beyond my control, I will be able to attend."
Majik says "alas, we are all saddened"
Fuzzy says "Me, too, I have a stomach flu and am holed up at home in front of my tube"
Prothan says "I am glad I have you all here tonight.. ahem aherm"
Majik says "that sucks (the tube part, I mean"
fur says "okie, its starting to fill up in here.."
fur cleans up a little in here
Vern has arrived.
Hobbit has arrived.
fur waits a little bit longer, since folks are still coming in
flexi has arrived.
Prothan looks for a good seat
Hobbit will just sit in the corner and attempt to learn something
flexi says "What's this robot conference thing?"
Fuzzy watches expectantly
What has arrived.
Fiona scribles some notes in her pad.
fur says "flexi, its just a big get together for everyone interested in robots"
Wizard conjures up a good seat.
You say "Don't worry Fuzzy, I am an ace stenographer."
Majik says "lets get started, shall we?"
fur dropped Refreshments.
Kadman has arrived.
Hobbit quietly pops open a can of Jolt

			      ** 7:01 PM **

fur says "Welcome, everyone, to TinyMUD's first conference on Robotics"
Kadman says ""
Majik says "yeaux"
Fuzzy nods
Acron grins.
Hoagy has arrived.
Hoagy found it!
Kadman 
Hoagy knows it took him long enough!
MisterX  sits in a leather chair and wipes his glasses
fur says "Tonight, we will be discussing things, such as Robot construction, mapping, and the effects they have on the TinyMUD environment"
Majik says "in what language have people constructed robots in?"
Fuzzy says "C."
What says "BASIC"
Wizard says "Emacs-Lisp"
Prothan says "pascal, script"
Vern says "Narc's was pascal"
Kadman says "logo"
MisterX says "C and script"
fur says "If you have a question, just blurt it out for now. If things get too crazy, we might have to go to hand raising.."
flexi says "C, lex, and yacc."
Kadman exits into the hallway.
Kadman has left.
fur says "C"
Majik says "What sorts od functions have you given your robots?"
Acron says "Froboz here in spirit says 'C'"
MisterX says "every one use a telnet process? or did someone actually"
Fuzzy says "How many robots are there? I have 1"
MisterX says "code a tcp client?"
Fuzzy says "Gloria uses TCP, as does Terminator"
flexi says "Client. 2 Terminator and Mr.Multiply."
Hobbit pipes up. "I didnt know BASIC could do network connections, unless you just pipe it to telnet or something
Prothan says "1. slave"
Vern says "NARC used two pipes, two programs, one communication file."
What says "BASIC can be a Terminal, and MCN does the telnetting."
Hobbit says "ah"
Wizard says "1: auto-Beaker. Only used once, for about half an hour early one morning."
fur says "some people have exec'd telnets, some have used pipes, and others wrote socket code"
Vern says "what does it mean to exec telnet?"
Stewy has arrived.
MisterX raises his hand
Fuzzy says "Gloria functions: 1. Talk, 2. Sell Quotes, 3. Map, 4. Give info, 5. Giver to charity"
MisterX says "Ill answer"
fur says "to have one process run another process and communicate with it"
MisterX says "you fork a new process set up a biderectional pipe system for input"
Vern says "I dont see why this is desirable."
MisterX says "and output and then let the parent do the logic"
MisterX says "tools to make tools to make tools"
Hobbit comments "saves you writing socket code, you just stuff chars at the pipe
fur says "if you aren't familiar with writing your own socket code, this could be easier vern"
What says "Just a bit."
Stewy says "For the record, Danny the Hermit is just some Emacs lisp code as well."
Majik says "is writing socket code difficult in C?"
Vern says "I have a program that makes a socket, but I got intimidated."
Vern says "Someone else's program that is."
fur says "socket code in C, is confusing to most people, although the code for it will fit on a page"
MisterX says "my question is this: what does TinyMUD use?"
Hobbit says "you could grab just about any PD source for something that does network code [including timymud!]"
Hobbit says "as an example."
MisterX says "TCP straight?"
flexi says "TinyMUD is not PD."
Majik says "what is the fastes form, if anyone has done any comparisons?"
flexi says "You might want to look at the 4.3bsd IPC tutorial...."
fur says "i imagine using sockets would be fastest, but this will not make a robot run noticably faster"
flexi says "robots shouldn't run fast anyway -- robots should not crowd out human players."
Majik says "which is easiest then, porting socket code or doing some goofy piping"
Vern says "then the question is simpole"
Vern says "simply what is easiest to code."
fur says "basically, thats it"
flexi says "My automaton language interpreter has an artificial 3 second wait between MUDAL commands for this reason."
Majik says "what sorts of useful functions do current robots have?"
Fuzzy says "Gloria waits between 1 second and 300 seconds for actions, depending on context. I believe the wait should depend on the number of people logged in."
fur says "i would say Gloria is the most useful robot"
Majik says "also, what are people's future plans with their robots?"
zippy has arrived.
Prothan says "terminator has his uses :)"
MisterX says "what sort of ethics would be applicable to robot builders"
flexi says "Test for room contents...."
Froboz has arrived.
Fuzzy says "Gloria has a thing for Terminator. Those flexi muscles..."
Froboz says "made it!"
fur says "robot ethics, an interesting can of worms.."
flexi says "No future plans for my code; unfortunately, because it's multithreaded, the code is probably not useful for anybody else either."
Fuzzy says "There will be two Glorias, one to be a stationary Librarian, one a mobile explorer / artificial St. Bernard"
MisterX says "well I understand that someone used a Radiant City Robot :-) shell and had 4 robots"
flexi says "Don't hog the world modeller is one that I'd suggest."
MisterX says "going at once"
Fuzzy says "Gloria will be published on the net in a month or so, after the bugs are out (grin...)"
Majik says "I've heard there is a robot that goes around killing people. This could be annoying."
Wizard says "You can't hog it too much in version 1.4..."
Fuzzy says "There is one called Killingmachine, but I don't know if it's a person or a program"
fur says "furbot is my test robot, for another robot that's not to be disclosed yet.."
Prothan says "I was trapped watching Jerry make thousands of sacrifices with his AMEX card,."
Fuzzy says "Was Jerry a robot or a simple Emacs macro?"
flexi says "Terminator kills people, but only on the behalf of a human player, and with aforementioned delays between commands."
fur says "yes, fortunately the wizard has solved that problem for us"
Prothan says "Fuzzy, a macro it seems"
Hobbit wonders, "What does one gain by killing another player?"
flexi says "I prefer trying to kill people who dump macros...."
Prothan says "But, it seemed that the killing machine in the rec room wasn't much more"
Fuzzy says "I had to lock him out of the Library"
fur says "Personally, I don't have any problems with what anyone (or any robot) does, as long as it's done in moderation."
Majik says "real world ethics, though. Could a robot hog the entire system and crash it? The potential for abuse here seems large."
Fuzzy says "An Emacs macro is worse. It doesn't check its output"
Prothan says "how"
Wizard says "In the current version a robot hogging time is not a problem--- after an initial burst it will be severely restricted in how fast it can send in commands. A bigger problem would be a robot that was capable of creating objects; so far that hasn't been a problem."
Prothan says "oops, sorry"
Hoagy has left.
fur says "No, I believe TinyMUD V1.4 makes it impossible for anyone or anything to overload the world. Right Wiz?"
Wisher has arrived.
Wizard says "You can still overload the database with too many objects, but you can't overload the CPU that's running it."
Majik says "what are the limits?"
Fuzzy says "An interesting question is how "secure" robots have to be. Is it ethical to fool other poeples Robots, and what consitutes a good puzzle that a robot builder must handle,m and what constitutes harrassment."
fur says "Right, as we found out on TinyHELL last night, when eeyore made a macro and created 1500 new rooms :("
Prothan says "I think it is ethical to fool with other's robots."
Prothan says "as much or as little as you want."
flexi says "Well, Mr.Multiply will create new prizes as needed... but it's under control."
Vern says "fur, what happenedd when the 1.5k rooms were created?"
flexi says "But should builders anti-lock links to robots tho? Create special exits to fool them?"
Prothan coughs politely
Prothan says "No, i think that most robot fooling should be restrained to"
Crash has arrived.
Prothan says "sending them odd commands, testing their robustness."
zippy has left.
fur says "Well, their machine was fine, but who want's 1500 rooms with the same name? They took it down and deleted the rooms."
Wizard says "Hostility towards robots is not any more or less ethical than hostility towards other users--- if a builder doesn't want Terminator wandering in, why should Terminator be able to wander in?"
Fuzzy says "Anti-locking exits is not a problem. Building robot "traps" starts to bother me. It means that useful robots have to be much more complicated."
Prothan says "i think that is part of the enjoyment of writing a robot"
fur says "I think that a robot should be able to reponsed to any text the game throws at it, basically anything goes."
Prothan says "to see what kind of problems it has 'living' in this environment."
Froboz says "how do robots discover exits? parse the room description and try defaults?"
flexi says "True enough. Can't disable two robots in the current context tho, except probabilisticly."
Fuzzy says "There is a line beyind which it's work to make them secure. The penalty woul dbe not having a useful robot able to function (assuming you think robots are useful to start)."
Prothan says " the only way i know to lock a room from robot entry is to have a contextual exit hinted in the room desc"
fur says "I think that if your robot can handle a maze properly (which it should if its on TinyMUD) then handling antilocked exits is trivial"
Fuzzy says "I think any text string from "say" or ":" is legit, because you can just program the robot to ignore other poeple"
Stewy makes sure Fiona is still taking notes for him, and makes to leave for a while.
Stewy has left.
Prothan says "I agree with Fuzzy, direct confrontation is ethical"
Prothan listens to the silence
fur says "Robot's should be able to cope with a dynamic world. People can relink any exit at any time. Robot's must be able to cope with this fact."
MisterX says "Who actually is running MUD"
Fuzzy says "My problem was a combination of 1) people creating deliberately confusing rooms, and 2) taking advantage of my programs "Good nature" to direct it in there. The cost was that I had to wipe her map."
Prothan says "Fuzzy, why don't you store the data?"
Majik says "was the map very useful?"
Prothan says "i.e. file-wise"
Vern says "How many players (human or robot) can the system handle?"
Fuzzy says "I do, but multiple version take up too much space"
MisterX says "What is there opinion? Can I have a taperecorder robot? an answering machine?"
MisterX says "a clock?"
flexi says "datalogger that eavesdrops on conversations?"
Prothan says "is it ethical to have a tape machine robot?"
Wizard says "Possibly as many as 252 in the current version. Haven't gotten up that far yet."
Prothan says "contents: innocent looking plant (actually a tape recorder)"
Vern says "(thanks wiz)"
Majik says "what are other people's ideas for robots?"
Wizard says "tape recorders would have to have single-word names and show up in the WHO list just like other players."
MisterX says "online programmable robot for hire 1000p for an hour!"
fur says "Prothan, you could log on yourself and lurk the same way, what is the difference? You don't even need a robot to do that."
Prothan says "but that's not as sneaky"
Fuzzy says "Why?"
Vern says "A 'robot' could be an item of furnature in a room that dynamically cahanges a room based upon events in the room."
Prothan says "by the way, i want to digress for a moment.. I have two exits from a room"
Fuzzy says "Many "ethics" questions apply equally wel to both human and robotic players."
Prothan says "with the same name.. it seems to select at random which exit it takes."
Prothan says "is this a feature? or just something that happens?"
fur says "I think they apply exactly the same way Fuzzy"
Tortoise has arrived.
Wizard says "feature"
Prothan says "humans have the tendency to type HOME when they are frustrated."
Froboz says "this is an interesting discussion, but is anyone else more interested in the how to of robots instead of the should/shouldn'ts?"
Prothan says "sure froboz, send me your code"
fur says "A robot can only be as sneaky as the person who programmed it, so they never have any real advantage."
Vern chuckles. "Me too, me too."
Hobbit reflects that Vern's "item of furniture" idea probably wouldn't work
Wizard says "robots have faster reflexes."
Vern wonders why.
fur says "Froboz, yes, but it looks like we won't get to that till later tonight."
Prothan says "robots can calculate -shortest route- much faster than we can"
Majik says "how about a robot contest, see who can map a maze fastest, or whatever. Should be complex enough to keep them at it for a while"
Hobbit says "unless your item of furnitire is actually a logged-in user, how is it going to sense changes in the room?"
Froboz says "just curious.. how much later.. I've gotta leave soon"
Wizard says "One of the reasons tinymud doesn't have serious combat is to keep people from having an incentive to write complicated assistants or robots to speed themselves up."
Vern says "Hobbit, it would be a logged in user."
Hobbit says "ok -- nemmine, then what Wiz said still holds"
Vern says "It wouldnt be transparent, just difficult."
Gloria has arrived.
Gloria says "Here I am, Fuzzy."
Fuzzy says "Take notes in <Robot Room>, Gloria"
Gloria says "I will now take notes in robot room, Fuzzy"
Wizard says "Every multi-user game I've seen in which speed gave you advantages soon spawned computer assistants..."
fur says "So they can move faster? What *real* advantage is there to that? I think the reason people play TinyMUD is to have fun. Getting somewhere faster doesn't make it more fun."
Fuzzy says "How about Robot builders that work from a plan spec and build large (in)consistent structures, like apartment buildings? Much easier than doing it by hand"
Prothan says "The reason that I would want a robot, is to see if"
Prothan says "i can imagine what kinds of inputs, situations my robot could"
fur says "Why would you want to move fast? To get money faster? Everyone knows how little money really means."
flexi says "Speed becomes important if there's combat -- and witness the macro-frenzy of new users when they want pennies...."
Prothan says "get itself into, a see if it could cope with it.."
Wizard notes that after playing in the TinyHELL game he has begun to understand the appeal of having macros to get places fast.
Gloria says "Excuse me, I have to wander over to Gloria's Office"
Gloria wanders by on her way to Gloria's Office.
Gloria climbs in the cabinet.
Gloria has left.
Prothan says "does TinyHell have combat?"
Fuzzy says "They won't take over the world, thats for sure"
Froboz says "I'd use robots for even simpler tasks..features in an adventure which could react dynamically to characters"
gigi has arrived.
Vern says "that's what i was talking about."
fur says "That's what I would like to see robots used for."
Prothan says "I agree with Froboz, I have come up with several interesting robots for my"
Prothan says "areas that would make things easier.."
Prothan says "and more interesting."
gigi has left.
Vern says "It effectively extends the power of the construction set."
Prothan says "Town crier robot, slave robot, guard robot, plot device robot....."
Froboz says "thats why I want to learn how to connect my programs with tinymud as a player.. I can write the conditional statements and parser.. I have no clue how to interface it with telnet"
Majik says "is there a limit to the number of times one can telnet from a site? What, say, would be the practicl robot limit for a single user to run at once?"
Vern says "Froboz, Im with you."
MisterX says "unless WIzard or the powers that be have an objection"
Fuzzy says "I can publish the C code for TCP connections. It was written by Flexi, but I have written the same stuff before. Leave Email addresses in my 'Fuzzy Emailbox'"
MisterX says " I will be making the one page of Radiant City Robots code"
fur says "I will be providing my socket code, for those who want it."
MisterX says "available"
Vern is overwhelmed.
MisterX says "just add logic, written in whatever language you like"
Majik says "This might be a good time to bring up a alt.mud news group. It would make discussions like this easier."
Prothan says "Well, you have about 20 votes here"
Froboz says "yes!! Alt.Mud"
flexi says "Nah -- less interactive...."
Prothan says "be right back."
Vern says "as well as attract further attention for muds in general, assuming you want it.....:)"
Prothan looks for the door
MisterX says "isnt there a mailing list"
Majik says "but easier on the mail system"
Acron says "yes, alt.mud"
Prothan looks for the bathroom.
Prothan goes home.
Prothan has left.
Froboz says "is there a mailing list?"
fur says "I think some sort of news group would be good"
Wizard says "how about rec.games.multi-user?"
Froboz says "good...lots of uses there"
Crash says "comp.protocols.tcp-ip.mud"
MisterX says "or just use rec.games .programmer"
MisterX says "its not heavily used"
Wisher says "Use it until the load becomes to heavy.."
MisterX says ":-)"
Hobbit yells from the back "If for nothing else than to submit cute sources!
Majik says "it could be...:->"
Wisher says "We hope!"
Froboz says "alt.mud.robot-innards?"
Majik says "contest: write the smallest robot that does something useful. See what people could produce"
Froboz says "a robot-a-thon!"
Majik says "(smallest in lines of code, that is)'"
Vern says "the pickup drop pennymaker wins hands down."
Majik says "then we'll say that that is not a usefule task"
Vern smiles.
fur says "I think we're getting off on tangeants here.."
Hobbit grins too. "Considering that money sort of becomes no object after a while.."
Froboz says "vending machines have loads of applications"
fur says "Anyone have anything else they want to add about ethics?"
Majik says "by doing a contest like this we promote active research into new robotic areas."
flexi says "Gag me with a pitchfork."
MisterX heads for the restroom.
fur says "We'll try to move on to robot contruction"
Majik gags flexi with a pitchfork
Stewy has arrived.
Froboz gags flexi with a pitchfork
Stewy says "Why doesn't someone start up a TinyMUD server dedicated to robots?"
Hobbit asks "Hey froboz, a vending machine would have to be a robot too, wouldnt it..
Stewy says "You could run your contests there."
Prothan has arrived.
Prothan sits down
Froboz says "yeah.. thats the idea give it money.. it gives you <plot device>"
Stewy says "Without bothering us slow, stupid humans."
fur says "That's not a bad idea Stewy"
Majik says "a world of robots. I wonder what that would turn out to be like?"
Vern says "Good for testing, but robots are *for* interacting with humans."
Prothan says "Is there a way inside tinymud to use a multi-item lock?"
Froboz says "multiple links of the same name..one key for each"
Prothan says "i think there are different levels of robots... robots that move"
Wizard suggests that Prothan should buffer his non-germane questions until after the meeting.
Prothan says "around HAVE to be higher processing than ones that just sit there and react to input."
Stewy is watching Fiona's log, even when he isn't here.
Stewy has left.
Hobbit says "'Scuuuuuze me, I have a page.."
Hobbit has left.
Prothan says "When you DO things, you are generating input, and robots that can react to THAT input, are tougher to do."
fur says "Froboz, You had a question on writing robots earlier?"
Froboz says "yes.. the nuts and bolts..parden pun of interfaceing robots with telnet"
fur says "The most direct way, is to communicate with the socket yourself."
fur says "but you can run a telnet and speak to it with pipes"
MisterX  offers " I will make the automaton code available for public
fur says "or have your robot, spawn a telnet process to use"
Froboz says "thats the problem..I'm clueless w.r.t. socket technology...thanks misterx"
MisterX says "ftp from pine.circa.ufl.edu and will gladly""
MisterX says "place anyone else s code there also"
Vern pats MisterX on the back.
MisterX says "I personally would like to see someones socket code though"
MisterX says "my code was written so that a number of non-expeierenced unix users"
fur will be releasing his socket code
flexi says "my automaton code can be anonymous ftp'd from play.mach.cs.cmu.edu, dir /usr/bsy/src/automaton/"
MisterX says "could use robots in tinyMUD"
MisterX says "using any language without knowing about networking"
Crash says "Could you give us a numeric address for play.mach, flexi?"
Tortoise says "I'm an inexperiences unix user that wants to know how to build robots. Any others?"
MisterX laughs at himself for making such a altruistic statement
erik has arrived.
erik waves
Tortoise says "I also don't know anything about networking."
fur says "Yes, Tortoise. You are in the right place."
Vern nods.
erik says "What spurred this conference on?"
Hobbit has arrived.
Tortoise doesn't know much, but seems eager.
flexi says "Wizard shouted...."
erik says "aha"
erik says "too many 'bts?"
Froboz turns tortise into a beaver.. so now hes an eager beaver
fur says "I announced the opening of the conferance last week"
Wizard says "fur asked me too"
erik says "er..bots"
Tortoise builds a dam.
Fuzzy says "Fuzzy must depart, but will leave his character here to log the discussion. Questions directed to me will be answered via MudMail."
erik says "bye"
fur says "I was deludged by robot questions, so I blew everyone off, and told them I would talk to them tonight :)"
Prothan waves to fuzzy
erik says "aha..is this about making robots or what?"
Prothan says "erik, yep"
Wisher says "Most interfaces come down to simple pair of send/recieve a line calls, tortoise"
Hobbit wonders if the meeting minutes will be made available.
erik says "i heard you have a skeleton, flexi, that you might give out"
MisterX says "I have aquestion for those with working robots"
Majik says "I think you're a bity late, erik. We've been talkng for about 45 minutes."
MisterX says "how do you avoid busy wait on input?"
erik says "sorry...i didnt know"
flexi says "You can have my automaton code, but you'll have to do the ripping apart."
Tortoise says "send/receive line calls?"
erik frowns
You say "Stewy plans to release these minutes.."
Prothan says "is it commented flexi?"
Tortoise feels stupid.
Fiona points to her steno pad.
fur says "MisterX, you can check a socket to see if there is pending input"
erik says "thats fine, is this the code that tim sent me?"
Hobbit had better get his butt on the mailing list RSN.
MisterX says "and if it isnt?"
Froboz says "WHAT MAILING LIST?"
flexi says "Not really. I tend to be lazy."
Hobbit says "tj"
Wisher says "Flexit, you can check the status of a socket..i dont't remember the call...i think its select"
Hobbit says "oops -- the mud list."
fur says "If there isn't any input pending, don't read. if you don't read, you don't hang"
erik says "If STEWY is releasing the minutes, I will leave so that you all can ghet back to your previous discussion,OK?"
Crash has left.
flexi says "select can time out."
Froboz says "i've gotta run all..drop me a note if anything interesting is said.. bye all"
MisterX says "you can always read with o_NDELAY"
Froboz has left.
MisterX says "yes?"
Wizard asks for hobbit's email address.
Hobbit says "I made a directory entry -- hobbit@pyrite.rutgers.edu"
erik says "please send me anything pertaining to this conference and robots, OK?"
Wizard puts hobbit on the mailing list.
flexi says "FIONDELAY means you can spin unless you sleep."
Hobbit is utterly amazed...
Tortoise feels stupid.
fur says "Oh, I misread your original question. If you try to read from a socket, and there is no input, then your process is automatically suspended."
Prothan hands wizard a slip of paper saying "prothan@pine.circa.ufl.edu
Acron says "Put me on that list too, at charles@pawl.rpi.edu"
Wizard makes the additions.
MisterX says "exactly my point, I do not want my robots suspened at random"
flexi says "If you're writing an active automaton tho, you may want to move it about even if there's no input."
MisterX says "ie the game is slow""
erik says "for (i=1; i=80; ++i) printf("o"); [80 o's = adios]"
erik says "bye all"
fur says "well, you can pass an argument to the select call that says return right away if there is no input"
flexi says "That's only 1"
Fuzzy says "Use FIONREAD to find if there are any characters."
Fuzzy says "I can share that code, too"
Prothan says "yes please fuzzy"
Tortoise waves goodbye to erik.
erik says "Fuzzy, can you send me that also?"
Prothan says "Anyone out there use pascal for their robot?"
Wisher says "Yeah, select takes a timeout parameter.."
Majik says "NARC does."
Fuzzy says "yes"
MisterX  says to wizard, "about that mailing list...
erik says "for the last time, i'm really leaving"
Wisher says "Well, prothan, all the C routines can be called from pascal.."
Majik says "NARC wrote his using two programs and an inout file"
Tortoise says "Hey! Waitaminute! I know Pascal! Does that mean I can write a robot?"
MisterX says "I am misterx@sun.ufnet.ufl.edu"
Wisher says "Sure."
flexi says "But you've got to finish printing the infinite number of "o"s!"
Prothan says "hmmmm"
erik says "i'm just starting top learn C, flex...give me a break!"
flexi grins.
Wizard adds misterx, too.
erik waves....and leaves...finally
erik goes home.
erik has left.
Tortoise looks confused.
flexi wonders why Tortoise looks confused.
Majik says "whats got you dow, tortoise?"
Prothan wonders why flexi wonders why tortoise looks confused.
Tortoise says "I also know Scheme. I want to write robots but have no clue how to."
fur says "tortoise, you can probably link in C routines to do the network communication"
Tortoise says "I don`'t know C!"
Prothan says "You don't need to... Just someone else who does..."
Hobbit says "go buy a copy of K&R, and two days later you will know C"
Acron says "FRoboz wants on that mailinglist , location jesse@pawl.rpi.edu"
fur says "you don't have to know how the C routines work, just how to call them and what they do"
Tortoise says "ahhhh..."
Prothan gets up to get himself and MisterX cokes..
Tortoise says "How do I call them and what do they do?"
flexi thinks he'll grab the minutes from Stewy later....
fur says "my socket package consists of 5 routines"
flexi waves goodbye.
flexi has left.
fur says "open, read, write, check for input, and close"
Tortoise wonders how to get fur's socket.
fur says "talk to mee after the conference"
Tortoise looks happy now.
Wizard puts jesse on the mailing list, then falls asleep. Anybody else who wants on should send mail to asp@cs.cmu.edu.
Vern looks happy too.
fur says "basically writing a robot, is an excercise in parsing, and a lot of graph traversing if you make one that moves"
Hobbit observes Wizar's use of Pittburghisms...
Tortoise stops worrying, too.
Tortoise wonders what a Pittburghism is.
Majik goes home.
Majik has left.
Vern says "fur, at this point a concrete example would clear up my remaining questions."
Vern says "so I'm satisfied."
fur says "an example of what?"
Tortoise tries to satisfy Vern.
Vern says "A working code that does the networking."
MisterX raises an eyebrow.
fur says "hold on.."
Vern didnt mean immediately!
Tortoise raises both eyebrows and a question: "Now?"
Yossarian has arrived.
fur says "you dont want me to explain it then?"
Vern says "Up to the rest of the crowd. Id like it."
Tortoise says "Explain away, but isn't the code too long to post here?"
What goes home.
What has left.
Tortoise waves hello to Yossarian.
fur says "I hope you undertand how file streams work"
Yossarian says "Hello. Sorry I'm late."
Vern says "ok by me."
Tortoise doesn't understand file streams.
gigi has arrived.
fur says "a socket stream works the same way, it just takes a lot more information to open it really"
Prothan excuses himself.
Prothan has left.
Vern looks like he understands.
Tortoise excuses Prothan.
fur says "if you don't understand how to open a file and read and write to it, then a robot is probably above your ability"
Yossarian says "Any decisions made here that I should konw about?"
MisterX says "I think you should make something clear"
fur says "whats that x?"
MisterX says "doesn't a socket act exactly as a normal file descript?"
MisterX says "if you use the normal file i/o mechanisms?"
gigi has left.
MisterX says "read/write etc"
fur says "yes, it is a file descriptor, just like a file"
Yossarian says "why use sockets? Pipes work just as well, and they're on both SysV and BSD."
MisterX says "pipes are nice (i used them) but socket code is probably more efficient"
Yossarian says "That's probably true. I just found it easier to implement pipes. Less programmer overhead, if not system overhead."
MisterX says "and some folks(that majik guy for example :-) thinks pipes are "goofy""
fur says "you mean pipes on a command line?"
Vern says "my question would be pipes to what? (I know *another* process that's doing the networking) But what's the point?"
Yossarian says "Well, I spawned off a child process which did the telnet which redirected the pipe it had been given to stdin and stdout."
Yossarian says "Actually, you need 2 pipes for that to work."
fur says "pipes are only one way, that means you have to have two of them"
MisterX raises his hand
MisterX says "anyone object to a quick pseudo pipe example?"
MisterX says "oops pseudo code"
fur says "that way works perfectly fine yoss"
Vern doesnt.
Tortoise says "me, neither"
fur says "vern wanted an example, so i was just going to explain mine"
MisterX says "I would rather learn about sockets myself :-) I already know pipes."
Tortoise says "I know neither."
Tortoise looks like he doesn't understand much.
fur is not sure what everyone wants now
What has arrived.
Yossarian says "well, if this isn't a policy meeting, I've got a final to study for. See you all later."
Vern says "Well *somebody* go ahead."
MisterX  waves to Y
What goes home.
What has left.
Vern waves to Yoss.
fur says "we went over policy type things earlier yoss"
Acron waves to Yossarian
Tortoise wabes goodbye.
Yossarian says "Oh, cold I get a recap then?"
fur says "you might want to dig up a transcript from someone"
Vern says "Was stewy making them available?"
Yossarian says "O, I think Stewy has a copy. Thanks."
fur says "okie"
Yossarian says "So long..."
Tortoise wabes goodbye.
Yossarian has left.
Hobbit feels a sudden urge to go read his mail, and grabs another Jolt on the way out.
Hobbit has left.
Vern says "ok....."
Tortoise says "Fur, could you explain how it's done now?"
Vern says "pipes or sockets?"
fur says "so would you guys rather i explained how to use my code, and then get a copy of it, or explain how to write socket code?"
Tortoise says "I vote for the former."
Acron says "How to use and a copy."
Vern says "I definitely want to see code at some point."
MisterX  votes for a quickie socket explanation
Vern seconds X>
Tortoise wants first the former and then the latter.
fur says "okie.. as we were saying earlier, a socket is the same thing as a file descriptor"
fur says "you must open() it, read() and write() from it, and when you are done, close() it"
Tortoise says "Ok."
Tortoise wonders if this all that was meant by streaming.
Vern says "yup"
fur says "open()ing a socket is a little more complicated that opening a file, because you need to specify things like the host & port @ etc.."
Tortoise says "which is just daisy...."
fur says "sockets can also have multiple things connected to it, so that adds more overhead"
fur says "even though you only need your robot to connect to one thing, you have to tell it that"
fur says "writing to a socket is simple, you just send the text out"
fur says "reading is slighty more complicated, since there is no EOF"
Vern says "Are host and port the only extra info needed? How are they specified?"
MisterX says "fur, there is no EOF ever?"
MisterX says "how does a network reset or whatever get communicated?"
fur says "yes vern, thats it"
fur says "mx, the connect is just simply broken off"
MisterX says "ie daisy crashes"
Tortoise groks that and seems happier.
MisterX says "hmmm"
fur says "but like i said, since sockets can have more than one thing connected to them, you have to pass them a set"
Vern wonders how this can possibly ammount to a whole page of code.
fur says "you have to put one element into the set"
Vern says "what are the elements of the set?"
fur says "the host name is usually specified by a string, you make a function call to the name server to get the octets"
fur says "the elements are the file descriptors you want to communicate with, you will just have one"
Vern says "I suppose a net address like 128.2.218.26 can be directly used (our name server sucks)."
fur says "yes, there is a structure you can fill with the numbers yourself"
Vern smiles.
fur says "the bulk of the code is in opening the socket"
Vern nods.
MisterX wonders about where the code will be?
fur says "writing and closing are just a simple call"
Vern is getting excited.
fur says "reading is slightly more complex, because you have the new problem of what to do if there is no text waiting for you"
MisterX  nods in agreement "Thats what I was interested in discussing"
Vern says "so you do the equivalent of error handling..."
fur says "if you do a read() and there is no text, your process will just wait until some comes in"
Rail has arrived.
Vern nods.
fur says "this is not always a good thing.."
fur says "so i made a fifth function, that checks to see if there is anything there or not"
Vern says "before you read, you must check the input stream...."
Rail says "Hello"
MisterX says "select() will allow a timeout value..."
MisterX nods at Rail.
fur says "right, select is use to determine this"
Vern is ready to see some code.
MisterX says "fur what does your robot do if the input is slow..."
Wisher says "Select is a little scary because it is used for both single and multiple connections socets."
fur says "there is one other minor point in my code, it is easier to use a file stream than it is a pointer, so i convert it to a stream right after i open it"
MisterX says " is it waiting? or has it possibly already moved?"
fur says "what do you mean if the input is slow?"
Rail says "Wisher, I don't understand your point."
Wisher says "That some people may be confused by the code, it uses file descriptor fields..and the like"
MisterX says "sometimes when I am on MUD I have had to wait for all the output"
MisterX says " form MUD to arrive (like contents)"
fur says "select() wants one of those sets i was talking about earlier, so you have to build and empty set and add your 1 socket to it"
fur says "mrx, your robot will probably have to wait too"
MisterX nods, "yes it will, but it would be nice if it didn't have to :-)
fur says "what good is it going to do you?"
MisterX says " I am trying to avoid this=>"
MisterX says " while(no_input) sleep(1)""
MisterX  laments his lack of desktop mips
fur says "thats why i made my fifth call"
Wisher says "A call to read on a socket, it will not return until there is input (or an error, such as disconnection)"
fur while (running) {
fur  if (input) process();
fur  generateCommand();
fur }
MisterX says "I see, but I am still not satisfied...You are waiting for input""
Vern has just thought of something.
fur says "no i'm not.."
MisterX says "input that may be a long time in coming!"
fur says "arrgh"
Vern wants to know if there are *many* helpful flags that robots should set (like the one that frames the room descriptions)
fur says "for one thing that one input you want to ignore is the same input you MUST wait for"
MisterX  grins "you did say your 5th call waits for input?
fur says "no, i said it checks if there is any waiting to be read"
MisterX says "perhaps I should make my goal clear"
MisterX says "i wish to have an asynchronous robot"
Rail says "You could set FASYNC on the socket, and get a SIGIO when there's input."
MisterX says " it does not depend exclusively on reading input"
Vern cowers at Rail's acronyms.
fur says "is this robot going to ever issue commands?"
MisterX says "yes"
fur says "the only way to tell if your command was executed, is by reading back the result"
Rail says "Vern, what acronyms? That's exactly what they're called on Unix."
Vern looks confused.
Vern says "Are these terms having to do with sockets?"
Vern says "I guess so."
Rail says "Yes."
Vern says "whats a sigio?"
MisterX says "good point, but if I wish the robot to go north 3 times in succession"
fur says "misterx, if you are trying to do something funny, please wait till later, so i can make sure that everyone understands the normal basic case first"
MisterX says "(as I often do)"
MisterX says "sorry""
fur says "you will soon find that is impractical"
Rail has left.
Wisher says "Vern, the frameing stuff you were asking about..try OUTPUTPREFIX and OUTPUTSUFFIX"
Wisher says "They are tinymud robot helpers."
Vern says "Are there other flags to know about?"
fur says "x, what if someone has come along and removed one of those exits, surely you want your robot to detect this"
Wisher says "Theyre not flags, they are settable strings for any connections to be printed before and after a result of a commands, Vern."
MisterX says "yes,..."
Yossarian has arrived.
MisterX says " I see your point""
Vern says "Wisher, do they need to be specified once, or every time you move?"
fur says "i really doubt if there is ever a case where you want your robot to be async"
Wisher says "Once each time you connect."
fur says "vern, try them now"
Yossarian says "Sorry to disturb you-all again, but does anyone know the CMU AFS file where the notes from the policy part of the mtg are kept? I can't reach Stewy or Fiona."
fur says "type OUTPUTPREFIX****"
MisterX says "perhaps you are correct, I for one do not even have a working robot (at least"
MisterX says "not one with brains)"
Vern types away.
fur says "try something when you get done vern"
Vern is clearly delighted!
Wisher says "SUFFIX is the footer equivalent to that."
Vern has done it already!
Vern says "How decorative!"
fur says "so everyone send mee your email, and ill zip off the code"
fur says "then you can look at it and cry"
Vern says "darken@yale.cd.edu"
Wisher wonders if fur really wants him to bother sending his address
MisterX smiles
Wisher laughs
Vern says "whoops darken@cs.yale.edu"
Acron says "charles@pawl.rpi.edu"
MisterX says "misterx@sun.ufnet.ufl.edu"
Fuzzy says "Hello?"
Vern says "hi fuzzy!"
MisterX says "Hello"
Wisher says "Hey, fur I can help ya, if you want..."
Fuzzy says "I extracted the Guts of Gloria to make a small Robot available for mail for FTP"
Acron says "Froboz is jesse@pawl.rpi.edu"
Yossarian waves to Vern, since they used to work in the same department.
Vern thanks Yoss for the 'tinybuilding' file.
Yossarian says "You're welcome."
Fuzzy says "It shows off TCP sockets, and OUTPUTPREFIX and SUFFIX. The host is NL.CS.CMU.EDU (I'll get the IP numbers in a minute). It is in /usr/mlm/ftp/robot.c."
Yossarian says "Later, all."
Yossarian has left.
fur has sent it out
Vern claps enthusiastically.
MisterX says " thanks"
Acron says "wonderful!"
MisterX says "thanks to fuzzy also"
fur wonders if wisher has been getting any work done
Wisher says "Who me? Lots..."
Wisher says "I can see 2 windows at once.."
Wisher smiles
fur is getting hungry, and will have to feast soon
Vern begins to weep.
MisterX shifts in his leather chair
fur says "whats wrong vern?"
Vern says "Nothing! I'm just starting to read the code, thats all."
fur says "i told ya the open() was kinda hairy.."
Vern says "actually, I'm kinda relieved."
Fuzzy says "Bye, all."
Vern says "bye"
fur says "later"
Fuzzy has left.
MisterX says "bye"
Wisher says "Bah fuzz"
Acron says "Fairwell, I must depart, but I thank you all for the very informative discussion!""
fur says "anything else before we draw to a close?"
Vern says "yes"
MisterX says "next meeting?"
Vern says "fur, what is the port argument again?"
fur says "feel free to send mail about the code"
fur says "its a number, like 4201 for there"
MisterX says "what is your address?"
fur says "i mean here"
Vern smiles
MisterX says "OK"
fur says "you can send tinyMail"
Vern says "thanks a heap fur!"
fur says "or gp5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu"
Wisher snickers
MisterX says "See yall later"
Vern says "bye x"
MisterX exits into the hallway.
MisterX has left.
fur says "just make sure ya put it to good use"
Vern shudders as the dark side of the force takes hold.
fur says "hehehehee"
MisterX has arrived.
MisterX has left.
Vern says "X, I'd like to talk about alternate approaches sometime."
fur wonders if Tortoise passed out or what
Vern says "woops"
Vern says "i guess hes gone."
Tortoise has been asleep for a while and has just woken up.
Vern feels tortoises pulse.
Tortoise says "I've been working in another window..."
fur says "Guess I'll officially close up the meeting now. Time to hit the juice and cookies!"
HypoMan has arrived.
Wisher faints after typing WHO and seeing that 20+ people are logged on..
HypoMan has left.
Vern says "thanks again fur!"
Vern says "I'm outta here."
fur says "there was 40 earlier wishy"
Acron says "Yes, thanks!"
Vern says "Bye all!"
Wisher drops dead
fur says "sure, no prob!"
Vern waves.
Vern has left.
Tortoise rubs his eyes and waves goodbye.
fur says "fiona, you can stop now"
Wisher says "Bah"
fur says "toodles!"
Tortoise says "humbug"
Tortoise says "Fur, I'd like to talk to you later about robotics, ok?"
fur says "sure"
Fuzzy has arrived.
Fuzzy says "Yes?"
fur says "was fiona your's or flexi's fuzzy?"
pomru has arrived.
Tortoise says "Great! See y'inz later!"
Tortoise goes home.
Tortoise has left.
Fuzzy says "Fiona was Stewy typing from his terminal"
Acron goes home.
Acron has left.
fur says "ah okie, well we've officially closed now"
Fuzzy says "I tried to add notetaking to Gloria in 5 minutes, but it didn't work"
fur says "hehehehee"
Fuzzy says "Great. Stewy left Fiona logged in to get a transcript"
pomru exits into the hallway.
pomru has left.
Fuzzy says "Bye..."
fur says "yeah, i wanted to tell her she could quit writing now"
fur says "byby!"
Fuzzy says "She'l "take note of it"..."

			** 9:?? **